does god really exist?

[The Naturalist]

It is depressing, I suppose, but one cannot ignore these facts in a search for truth.

Thank you, Locke, that was an excellent continuatiuon of my point.

[kyo83]

Hi guys,

I realize that it's almost impossible to explain where a person's personality lies without touching about the other two entities. That’s the spirit and the body. To better understand what a soul is, its also essential that we touch upon the spirit and the body. What you’re about to read is a edited excerpt from Watchman Nee’s book: The Spiritual man. I find this book rather useful in understanding the spirit,soul and body. So I hope that you’ll more or less be able to understand what a soul is and why we don’t say that it’s just the physiological side of it that controls our being. Please bare with me as this is going to be a very long post.

The Bible states that a man comprises of 3 forms: The spirit, the soul and the body.

If you have read the Bible, you'll know that in the beginning God created Man from the Earth, and He gives them life by breathing into them. This breath is what makes us alive. When God's breath of life entered the human body, it became the spirit. At the same time, when this spirit came in contact with the body, it produced the soul. This spirit of man is eternal, but it does not have the "eternal life."

When the spirit caused the body to come alive, man became a living soul, a living person with his own consciousness. A complete person is a tripartite being, a person with a spirit, a soul, and a body. According to the Bible, man was created with two independent materials—spirit and body. When the spirit entered the body, the soul was produced. The soul is the result of the union of the spirit and the body. The body was dead, but when it met the spirit of life, a third entity was produced, the soul. Without the spirit, the body is dead. When the spirit came, the body became alive. When the spirit is in the body, something organic is produced. This something that is organic is called the soul.

The man then became "a living soul." This signifies not only that the soul is produced from the union between the spirit and the body, but that after the soul is produced from this union of the spirit and the body, both the spirit and the body are incorporated into the soul. In other words, the soul and the body are fully joined to the spirit, and the spirit and the body are incorporated into the soul.

The soul served as the linking chain, the seat of man's personality, making it possible for man to exist independently. The soul is the consummation of the spirit and the body, the totality of the elements within man. After man's spirit and body were fully integrated, man became a living soul. This soul is the very result of the union of the two things; it is man's own personality.

Given a similar but somewhat incomplete illustration: if we put a drop of ink into a cup of water, the ink and the water mingle together and become ink-water. You can say that it is ink; it is indeed ink. You can also say that it is water, for it is still water. The ink and the water are integrated together and have become a third thing—ink-water. (Of course, the soul produced from the union of the spirit and the body is an independent and insoluble element, just as the spirit and the body are.) In the same way, the spirit and the body were two independent elements, but after they combined, the combination became a living soul.

God characterizes man by his soul because in His creation man's characteristics lie in his soul. Man is not only a body, and he is not only a body with the breath of life, but he has become a living soul. This is why later on in the Bible we see God calling man a "soul"; He did not call man a man, but He called him a soul.

[to be cont....]

[kyo83]

[continue from the previous post...]

The reason for this is that a man is judged by his soul. The soul represents the man and expresses the characteristics of his personality. The soul is the organ of man's free will, and both the spirit and the body are incorporated into it. It has a free will. The three things—the spirit, the soul, and the body—are like a lighted electric bulb. Within a bulb, there is the electricity, the filament, and the light. The body is like the filament, the spirit is like the electricity, and the soul is like the light. Electricity is the source of light, and light is the consequence of electricity. The filament is a physical material for conducting electricity and for emitting the light. When the spirit and the body combine together, they produce the soul. The soul bears the characteristics of the combination of the spirit and the body; it is the product of the union of the two things. The spirit is the motivating force behind the soul, while the body is the means to express the soul. This is like electricity being the source of light, while the filament is the means through which light shines.

However, we should clearly remember that in this life the soul is man's consummate expression, while in the next life and in resurrection the spirit will be man's consummate expression. This is why the Bible says, "It is sown a soulish body, it is raised a spiritual body" (1 Corinthians. 15:44). (I shall not go deeper into this.)

The body is the "world-consciousness," the soul is the "self-consciousness," and the spirit is the "God-consciousness." There are five organs in the body which afford man the five senses. This physical body enables man to communicate with the physical world. This is why it is called the "world-consciousness." The soul comprises that part in man known as the intellect, which makes man's existence possible. The part of love generates affections toward other human beings or objects. Affections originate from the senses. All these are parts of man himself; they form the personality of man. Hence, they are called the "self-consciousness." The spirit is the part with which man communicates with God. With this part man worships God, serves Him, and understands his relationship with God. Hence, it is called "God-consciousness." Just as God dwells in the spirit, the self dwells in the soul, and the senses dwell in the body.

The soul is the meeting point; here the spirit and the body join. He communicates with the outside world of senses through the body; the world and the body interact with one another. The soul lies in between these two worlds and belongs to these two worlds. On the one hand, it communicates with the spiritual realm through the spirit, and on the other hand, it communicates with the physical world through the body. The soul has the power of self-determination; it can make decisions concerning the things related to it in the environment and can choose or reject them. It is impossible for the spirit to control the body directly; it requires a medium. This medium is the soul, which was produced when the spirit touched the body. The soul is in between the spirit and the body; it binds the spirit and the body together as one. The spirit can rule over the body through the soul and subject it under God's power. The body can also induce the spirit through the soul to love the world.

Among the three elements of man, the spirit is joined to God and is the highest. The body is in contact with the material world and is the lowest. In between the two is the soul. It takes as its nature the nature of the other two. As such it becomes the linkage of the other two parts. Through the soul the two parts can fellowship with each other and can work together. The function of the soul is to maintain the spirit and the body in their proper order so that they will not lose their proper relationship with one another. In this way, the body, which is the lowest, will submit to the spirit, and the spirit, which is the highest, will be able to control the body through the soul. The soul is indeed the chief element in man.

[to be continue..]

[kyo83]

[continue from the previous post...]

Man's spirit is the noblest part of man; it dwells in man's innermost part. The body is the lowest and remains outside. The soul dwells between the spirit and the body and is the medium of the two. The body is the outer shell of the soul, while the soul is the outer shell of the spirit. When the spirit tries to control the body, it has to do so with the help of the intermediary soul. Before man fell, it was the spirit (through the soul) that controlled the whole being. When the spirit wanted to do something, it communicated to the soul, and the soul activated the body to follow the order of the spirit. This is what it means for the soul to be the medium.

The soul is potentially the strongest part because both the spirit and the body are incorporated into it, take it as their personality, and are affected by it. But in the beginning, man had not sinned, and the power of the soul was fully under the control of the spirit. Hence, the power of the soul was the power of the spirit. The spirit could not drive the body by itself; it had to do so through the soul.

In conclusion, the soul is the seat of personality; man's will, intellect, and emotion all lie in the soul. The spirit is the part with which man communicates with the spiritual realm. The body is the part with which man communicates with the physical realm. The soul is in the middle of these two parts. It exercises its judgment to determine if the spiritual realm is to rule or if the physical realm is to rule. Sometimes the soul rules through its intellect and senses; when that happens, the psychological world rules. Unless the soul yields its rule to the spirit, the spirit cannot rule. Hence, the soul has to authorize the spirit to rule before the latter can rule over the soul and the whole body. The reason for this is that the soul is the origin of man's personality.

The soul is the master of a person because man's will is part of the soul. When the spirit controls the whole being, it is because the soul has yielded itself and has taken a lower position. If the soul rebels, the spirit will not have the power to control it. This is the meaning of "free will" in man. Man has the absolute right to make his own decisions. He is not a machine which turns according to God's will. He has his own faculty of deliberation. He can choose to obey God's will, and he can choose to oppose God's will and to follow the devil's will. According to God's arrangement, the spirit should be the highest part and should control the whole being. Yet the main part of man's personality, the will, is of the soul. Man's will (soul) has the power to choose to let the spirit rule, to let the body rule, or to let the self rule. Because the soul is so powerful, the Bible calls it "a living soul."

Hence that's why we always say Man is 2/3 spiritual and 1/3 natural. By the way, I haven't touch upon where our conscience and intuition lies..but I will just have to put that on hold until you guys can digest this.
[EDIT]

Phew~
kyo83

[kyo83]

I see the exerpts above important for future discussion of the subject on soul.

You said that the soul constitues of the Will, the Mind, and the Emotion. However these three are not necessarily separate devices.

When I say that the soul consists of the mind, the will and the emotion. I'm not saying that the 3 components are 3 devices. I'm just saying that the soul controls the 3 components.

The "willingness" or "unwillingness" of a person to do something is calculated by the cost/benefit ratio, which the Mind, or brain, determines.

Emotion which is felt is normally natural, but the emotion expressed and deemed appropriate to be expressed is governed by the brain, which makes a decision based on outside factors(outside of the body) and influences.

True, but what governs the brain? I could think of no other except a soul behind it.

Under the stipulation of what i said above, you are effectively saying that the soul is an intangible entity constituting of intrinsic matter. If you exclude the Mind; the Will, and the Emotion, nothing learned after birth can be incorporated into the 'soul'.

No. As I have said, the soul consist of the mind, emotion and will. Thus with the mind it is able to learn through a physiological matter, which is the brain.

Anyway:
If a soul is what we are...yet a soul cannot be destroyed, what is it that goes to heaven?

Erm.. I don't quite get what you mean. It's our soul that is going to heaven or hell. Our soul will never be destoyed.

kyo83

[Dretlin]

Congrats kyo on a massive set of posts lol



Really, wow, well done

I read through it and,

I don't agree that the soul is the origin of humans personality. The cerebrum is a tangibal part of the human brain, it operates personality.

While the soul is not and in medical terms, does not exist.

I also think that if you don't fallow god you are automaticly in league with the devil.

Yet I still want to belive in the existitance of the soul...

[Raoul Duke]

It's late and I do not have time to read all that right now, however in the meantime I shall respond to your post which responded to mine.

The "willingness" or "unwillingness" of a person to do something is calculated by the cost/benefit ratio, which the Mind, or brain, determines.

Emotion which is felt is normally natural, but the emotion expressed and deemed appropriate to be expressed is governed by the brain, which makes a decision based on outside factors(outside of the body) and influences.

True, but what governs the brain? I could think of no other except a soul behind it.

That reasoning is irrational. But not surprising. It is reminiscent of much of the Creationism; Intelligent Design and Existance of God justifications. Which tends to be either:

-Filling in the gaps of science. That is to say, 'Science cannot explain this [yet!!!], therefore an Intelligent Designist (God - etc) must be responsible.'

The assumption and justification that there must always be something more. It is extending the analogy of: "The existance of a ticking watch must prove the existance of a watchmaker who created the watch for a specific purpose."

The question I ask of that analogy is: Who created the watchmaker? (A.k.a, God, and who created the creator of the Creator?) Not only is it endless and irrelevant, but it does not necessarily exist, lmafo.

And

What is the purpose of a human being? We do not have a specific purpose like a watch.

Apply what I said to your response and you will understand how I feel.

I'll get back to you tomorrow night, and read through what you have said.

[kyo83]

The "willingness" or "unwillingness" of a person to do something is calculated by the cost/benefit ratio, which the Mind, or brain, determines.

Emotion which is felt is normally natural, but the emotion expressed and deemed appropriate to be expressed is governed by the brain, which makes a decision based on outside factors(outside of the body) and influences.

True, but what governs the brain? I could think of no other except a soul behind it.

That reasoning is irrational. But not surprising. It is reminiscent of much of the Creationism; Intelligent Design and Existance of God justifications. Which tends to be either:

-Filling in the gaps of science. That is to say, 'Science cannot explain this [yet!!!], therefore an Intelligent Designist (God - etc) must be responsible.'

Hi Locke,
No, That wasn't what I intended. I know that many scientist would say that because Science couldn't explain what makes a soul, Creationists make use of that to checkmate. In the first place, when The Naturalist decided to discuss on the subject on Soul, I knew for certain that this is going to end nowhere. Reason is because our soul is a supernatural matter, which contradict every logic in Science. So no matter how we discuss this, it wouldn't end anywhere near. I'm just glad that at least I can posts my views.

The assumption and justification that there must always be something more. It is extending the analogy of: "The existance of a ticking watch must prove the existance of a watchmaker who created the watch for a specific purpose."

The existence of a watch doesn't prove the watch to have a maker, but the incredible complexity in a watch does give a high chance of a watchmaker doesn't it? For if the watch is been made by chance, the ratio to that is extremely far reached. So I would give the possiblity of a maker, and its not just this that I've made my conclusion of a maker, but also many other creation which were made in such complexity with a given purpose.

The question I ask of that analogy is: Who created the watchmaker? (A.k.a, God, and who created the creator of the Creator?) Not only is it endless and irrelevant, but it does not necessarily exist.

God is eternal. There is no beginning of God and there is no end to Him. He lives outside of time. He wasn't created, otherwise He would just be like one of us, but He is already there. This is perhaps something too much for our minds to fathom but its true according to the Bible. Of course there isn't any scientific evidence for this but I believe the Words of the Bible to be true.

What is the purpose of a human being? We do not have a specific purpose like a watch.

We do have a purpose. Everyone has a unique purpose that God had given to each and everyone of us. God said in the Bible, that He knew every single one of us even before we were born. He knew us even before the creation begins.

For many of us our purpose here on Earth is what we like to do, example, become a buisnessman to boost the economy.

Our main purpose is to have fellowship God and rule and reign with Him for Eternity. It wouldn't be like what many people would think, that we all play harp and sit on a cotton candy cloud. That's so boring!

Apply what I said to your response and you will understand how I feel.

I know that its very difficult to understand something which have no scientific evidence. I'll try to give the clearest answer possible to the questions.

If you would like, I like to introduce a book called 'The Case of a Creator' by Lee Strobel. I think it would help many of us.

kyo83
p.s.: I do hope that you can read through the 3 long posts. I don't expect you to understand or even agree with them, but reading through will perhaps help a little.

[kyo83]

Congrats kyo on a massive set of posts lol



Really, wow, well done

I read through it and,

I don't agree that the soul is the origin of humans personality. The cerebrum is a tangibal part of the human brain, it operates personality.

While the soul is not and in medical terms, does not exist.

I also think that if you don't fallow god you are automaticly in league with the devil.

Yet I still want to belive in the existitance of the soul...

Hi -:Đ.Ŕ.Ę.Ŧ.Ł.Ϊ.Ň:-,

Thanks for taking your time to read through that long posts. My intention for posting that is not to show off how knowledgeable I am, but really to hope that at least we can better understand what a soul is and how does it relate to our physiological devices.

My intention for posting my views on the subject of soul is also not to impose my belief/views on anybody. I was just trying to share what is a christian view on the subject.

kyo83

[Raoul Duke]

I read all three of your long posts (I'll just call them your 'thesis' from now on). I understand what you have said, but disagree to a considerable extent. However thankyou for sharing your opinion.


Similarly to you, I have asked myself some important philosophical questions. For example: "What is our purpose?", "is everything just an accident?" yada yada yah. However unalike you, I have not yet found an answer in which I can have faith.

"The existence of a watch doesn't prove the watch to have a maker, but the incredible complexity in a watch does give a high chance of a watchmaker doesn't it? For if the watch is been made by chance, the ratio to that is extremely far reached. So I would give the possiblity of a maker, and its not just this that I've made my conclusion of a maker, but also many other creation which were made in such complexity with a given purpose."

I do not think that there is a mathematical formula for proving the existance of a supreme being, lol. And if you account for a 'God' by the complexity of human life and existance, why can you not consider that there must also have been a Creator of God? This is all hypothetical (from my stance of course), by I am interested in your logic and how you discriminate between the two.

[kyo83]

"The existence of a watch doesn't prove the watch to have a maker, but the incredible complexity in a watch does give a high chance of a watchmaker doesn't it? For if the watch is been made by chance, the ratio to that is extremely far reached. So I would give the possiblity of a maker, and its not just this that I've made my conclusion of a maker, but also many other creation which were made in such complexity with a given purpose."

I do not think that there is a mathematical formula for proving the existance of a supreme being, lol. And if you account for a 'God' by the complexity of human life and existance, why can you not consider that there must also have been a Creator of God?

The first reason why I believe that there's no other creator before God is because Bible said so.

Secondly, even if there is a creator who created God. I don't see that as a primary concern, for since the God who created us have proven Himself by his word and by sending down His son to die for humanity. I personally don't think that is a problem even if there is a creator who created God. However as far as the Bible is concern, there couldn't be one who created God.

I've said all that I wanted say. Do you guys still want to continue with the question regarding the soul or we move on to other questions?

kyo83
p.s.: The Naturalist, I think you haven't yet contribute. Do you want to ask me anything?

[Ethereal Blaze]

but, in order for "God" to exist, doesnt there have to be a god mom and a god dad?

[Lucia Skyfire]

but, in order for "God" to exist, doesnt there have to be a god mom and a god dad?

God is not a physical entity, and thus does not possess the traits of "Life and Personality", and thus does not need to be born.
If you do not require or otherwise possess life, there is no need for a birth, thus parents are not possible.
Did that make any sense?

[Ethereal Blaze]

even if it did (which it didnt,) whered the git come from!!???

[kyo83]

even if it did (which it didnt,) whered the git come from!!???

Hi rikoku,

I think what Kai said is right. What's a git?

[J.Kudo]

I see the exerpts above important for future discussion of the subject on soul.

The "willingness" or "unwillingness" of a person to do something is calculated by the cost/benefit ratio, which the Mind, or brain, determines.

Emotion which is felt is normally natural, but the emotion expressed and deemed appropriate to be expressed is governed by the brain, which makes a decision based on outside factors(outside of the body) and influences.

True, but what governs the brain? I could think of no other except a soul behind it.

Well, from an atheist standpoint, and taking this out of biochemistry and neurology. The brain is a very complex device, which works baded on chemical association. Things that fire togeather wire togeather as neural recepters become chemicaly joined based on how often you focus on things, this developes into memories over time, and the memories that we focus on trigger emotions, which then trigger more memories which trigger otehr emotions whih then trigger the original memory. (If your dog died until you stop allowing those impulses to fire togeather (I.E. occor) you will experience the same emotions when you see a dog that looks similar.

Emotions are chemical reinforcement of memory. There is a gland in your brain just byond the Putuitary which produces protines, aminopeptides to be more precise. It in fact produces one peptide for every emotion that we can experience, and it is triggered by electrical responses that are associated with those momories. It then floods the body with the proper peptides for taht emotion or emotions, and they find specific receptor sites on the cell dedicated to that specific emotion. This causes actual changes in you cells' chemical structure that produces the respopnses in our macroscopic self we feel as emotion. an interesting tidbit, emotions use the same receptor slots as heroin so you can become addicted to an emotional state in which you will become trapped in the past and effectively search for ways to wind up in situations that will get your emotional rush. This combined with a desire to be happy and live a good life, especialy when they conflict, creates what many call the human drama.

Under the stipulation of what i said above, you are effectively saying that the soul is an intangible entity constituting of intrinsic matter. If you exclude the Mind; the Will, and the Emotion, nothing learned after birth can be incorporated into the 'soul'.

No. As I have said, the soul consist of the mind, emotion and will. Thus with the mind it is able to learn through a physiological matter, which is the brain.

To continue my atheist perspective I believe that there is great confusion over this idea or perception of a 'will' that we have, will is devined as a desire to accomplish a goal or the determination to accomplish that goal. This said, what many define as will in stead seems to be a complex coctail of emotions, as opposed to anything seperate from them.

Anyway:
If a soul is what we are...yet a soul cannot be destroyed, what is it that goes to heaven?

Erm.. I don't quite get what you mean. It's our soul that is going to heaven or hell. Our soul will never be destoyed.

kyo83[/quote]

I personally detest the Idea of the fact that people believe in the idea that God somehow must punish us for what somone deemed good or evil, when in reality there is no definite good or evil. This idea has done more harm than good by trying to lay out a path, and more often than not focusing all those who are not on that path as evil themselves. This paradigm of a perception of God or gods as such has caused harm to Oppresed people, caused harm to homosexuals, caused harm to everyone's perception of right and wrong, caused harm to the World Trade Center, and caused harm to religon itself.

I believe (and through a massive ammount of philosiphy and science that I won't go into unless asked) that philisophicaly religon has been twisted into this precept to grant power to the church and not to state that perhaps the TRUE IDEA of God is not that it is an omniotent being that created us, but that it IS a being that EVERYONE and EVERYTHING exists as and within. And EVERYTHING acts to either evolve this force or devolve it, not acting as good or evil, but only as expanding knowledge and the one universal principle that both Science and Philosiphy states the principle of Unity, for I am my mind, and I am also my body, but I am also my cells, and the enegy within them, and I am my atoms, and I am my physical organisim, and at the same time, my IDeas are one with that as well, so not only am I physical but also perception and thought, and since atoms trly exist as more of a bit of information than as a substance, being mostly empty, it could be said that easily EVERYTHING is a thought, and therefore an Idea, which we create, and thus we create everything, but at the same time, we ARE created by ourselves and everything around us, and thus EVERYTHING is created by this unity.


and this concept can be stated by one law that has existed since Newton (or was it Einstein?)
"Matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed only Transformed."
((That was a bit long winded... are you glad I left out the long part?))