does god really exist?

[Mugen-Sama]

Towards the wiccan. The responses are from a Christian point of view:

Witches believe in endless reincarnation and Karma that is passed on from life to life as you struggle to reach enlightenment.

Response: There is no Choice in Paganism. No matter what you do or what you believe, your life is heading toward the same truth, the same goddess. This goddess offers no end to the wheel of life cycles and has nothing more to offer you than a broken record and eternal punishment for past mistakes. Jesus offers so much more. He loved us so much that He died on the cross so that we can spend eternity in heaven. He gave us choice. The choice to choose Him or not to choose to be with Him. Jesus does not demand that we spend life after life trying to improve our karma, while not remembering what we did to deserve the less-than-perfect karma rating that led us back to earth again. He does not expect you to be punished for a previous life's karma only to pass your karma on to another life for more endless punishment. All he asks is that you believe in Him and accept his free gift of an eternity with Him.

For many Pagans the Christian belief in hell is a major obstacle. They see Christians as Cruel and heartless for believing that humans would go to hell for not believing in Christ. This usually comes from an incomplete understanding of what hell is and the free will that God gave us to choose our future.

Response: First of all, Hell was created for the devil and his angels. (Matthew 25:41, 2 Peter 2:4). The devil is a sinner and has sinned from the beginning (I John 3:8). So, hell is a place for sin and death.

Why would God create a place for sinners to go, they might ask. Why would God create sin? God didn't create sin. It is a natural result of giving us free will. We are not robots put on earth and allowed only to do what God would have us do. God gave us freedom to choose and to enter into a relationship with Him freely. A relationship is no relationship at all if a person is forced to love.

Pagans will also argue that no one would choose hell, so it is only because of a lack of knowledge that they would go there and that is unfair.

Response: Throughout our society we see many people make bad choices with severe consequences and they were fully aware of their actions. People drive drunk, do drugs, and break the law. There are consequences for those actions and we don't assume they didn't know what they were doing. It all comes back to choice and freedom, something we all cherish and wouldn't want to live without.

It is not unfair to be punished for our actions. Even nature shows evidence of consequences for our actions. Believing in Christ is an action. It is the basis for how we live our lives, and there are consequences for those who choose to live apart from God just as there are consequences for those who make bad choices in society. It really isn't so foreign. Christians are those who choose to live with Christ for eternity. Non-Christians are those who don't. Heaven is a gift to those who choose it. "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life". Hell is a place for those who have chosen to live apart from God, to whom God will say "Your will be done".

Why doesn't God give us a second chance?

Response: Again this comes back to free will. If God manipulates the choice it isn't really free will is it? Choosing to follow Christ after experiencing the reality of hell is like choosing to bet on a horse race moments before the winner crosses the finish line. God made the evidence of His presence overwhelming. He gave us His Word in the Bible, He sent his Son to die for us, and he created the amazing universe we live in. He also gave us guidelines to live by because He wants peace and happiness for us. He didn't want us to live in chaos without Him, only to accept Him when the race is finished. God is a personal God who loves us and wants us to have hope, a hope that he freely gives. But, it is up to us to choose eternity with Him or apart from Him. God is honoring the right of those he created to make their own choices. We are not just a means to an end. He loves us and created us as unique individuals. He will reward us and receive us with open arms if we choose Him.

[Atomosk]

ravensblood, mugen-sama, i am very much impressed.

mugen-sama: i knew all this before, but it's good to bring such things to light in case others haven't figured them out.

ravensblood: wican, you say? cool. thank you for sharing your views to the board. yet another religion contributing to the conversation. i must say i am significantly elightened.

still hoping for a jew view, but i'm willing to wait. in the meantime, here are some links!

illwillpress.com It's the Lord and Master, Foamy the foul-mouthed squirrell! despite his squirrelly exterior, Foamy has a few things to contribute about religion. check his rants, and the episodes "Sacred Space", " Passion of the Zombies", and "Squirrell Songs."
friendsoffoamy.coma foamy fansite. Jonathan Ian Mathers, the creater of Foamy, can't afford to host all the episodes, so his fans do it on this fansite!

[J.Kudo]

To contradict these opinions with some of my own, not to flame or start argument but in civil debate.

Towards the wiccan. The responses are from a Christian point of view:

Witches believe in endless reincarnation and Karma that is passed on from life to life as you struggle to reach enlightenment.

Response: There is no Choice in Paganism. No matter what you do or what you believe, your life is heading toward the same truth, the same goddess. This goddess offers no end to the wheel of life cycles and has nothing more to offer you than a broken record and eternal punishment for past mistakes. Jesus offers so much more. He loved us so much that He died on the cross so that we can spend eternity in heaven. He gave us choice. The choice to choose Him or not to choose to be with Him. Jesus does not demand that we spend life after life trying to improve our karma, while not remembering what we did to deserve the less-than-perfect karma rating that led us back to earth again. He does not expect you to be punished for a previous life's karma only to pass your karma on to another life for more endless punishment. All he asks is that you believe in Him and accept his free gift of an eternity with Him.

Response: and you seem to forget the old testament in this statement, while you are correct in those statements, as per the christian bible, you still musn't forget the whole story, such as the great flood and I believe it was the book of Revalation however I could be wrong (The sixth book I think).

On another note this is hypocritical, he will help anyone who worships him as a god but noone else, yet in the very same book, in the ten commandments believe, you shalt not worhip idols. In addition anyone who was willing to die to protect his people would seem to want EVERYONE to be included, not be worshiped as a god, my opinions only mind you.

For many Pagans the Christian belief in hell is a major obstacle. They see Christians as Cruel and heartless for believing that humans would go to hell for not believing in Christ. This usually comes from an incomplete understanding of what hell is and the free will that God gave us to choose our future.

Response: First of all, Hell was created for the devil and his angels. (Matthew 25:41, 2 Peter 2:4). The devil is a sinner and has sinned from the beginning (I John 3:8). So, hell is a place for sin and death.

Why would God create a place for sinners to go, they might ask. Why would God create sin? God didn't create sin. It is a natural result of giving us free will. We are not robots put on earth and allowed only to do what God would have us do. God gave us freedom to choose and to enter into a relationship with Him freely. A relationship is no relationship at all if a person is forced to love.

Reposet:

If God gave us free will than WHY should we be punished for NOT believeing in God or God's son? we should be allowed to freely believe waht we chose?

Pagans will also argue that no one would choose hell, so it is only because of a lack of knowledge that they would go there and that is unfair.

Response: Throughout our society we see many people make bad choices with severe consequences and they were fully aware of their actions. People drive drunk, do drugs, and break the law. There are consequences for those actions and we don't assume they didn't know what they were doing. It all comes back to choice and freedom, something we all cherish and wouldn't want to live without.

It is not unfair to be punished for our actions. Even nature shows evidence of consequences for our actions. Believing in Christ is an action. It is the basis for how we live our lives, and there are consequences for those who choose to live apart from God just as there are consequences for those who make bad choices in society. It really isn't so foreign. Christians are those who choose to live with Christ for eternity. Non-Christians are those who don't. Heaven is a gift to those who choose it. "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life". Hell is a place for those who have chosen to live apart from God, to whom God will say "Your will be done".

Reposet: So if I read this right you are saying that hell is created for the devil to wallow in his own sin and the sin of others? So if you sin and don't worship Christ and God you become a servant of sin and the devil, and therefore, even if you are a great person and do noting but good in your life, except for maybe one thing, and never repent for that one sin, you would go to hell as you chose the path of sin? To go further, what if you conjured spirits from other realms in orde to better the lives of others, as many Wiccan rituals can be used for?

Why doesn't God give us a second chance?

Response: Again this comes back to free will. If God manipulates the choice it isn't really free will is it? Choosing to follow Christ after experiencing the reality of hell is like choosing to bet on a horse race moments before the winner crosses the finish line. God made the evidence of His presence overwhelming. He gave us His Word in the Bible, He sent his Son to die for us, and he created the amazing universe we live in. He also gave us guidelines to live by because He wants peace and happiness for us. He didn't want us to live in chaos without Him, only to accept Him when the race is finished. God is a personal God who loves us and wants us to have hope, a hope that he freely gives. But, it is up to us to choose eternity with Him or apart from Him. God is honoring the right of those he created to make their own choices. We are not just a means to an end. He loves us and created us as unique individuals. He will reward us and receive us with open arms if we choose Him.

Reposet: so by your deffinition God wans us to do everythign he says so that he won't be influencing our free with with a promise of eternal suffering for disobedience? This is, unto itself an imposement upon free will. You cannot preach free will at the same time as saying that those who don't believe what you want them to will spend a life of suffering. Again, my opinion. I have read many books regarding this subject and it appears to me that this system is an outdated form of control used by the church to incite wars and obedience, in order to maintain control of a populus via fear and intimidation. On the same note, how could ANY benevolent being allow anyone, regardless of waht they have done, fall into eternal suffering, if God is supposed to be the ultimate benevolence, it's not reasureing at all.

[Raoul Duke]

"You can do whatever you choose, however if you do not do EXACTLY what i say and make one small mistake you will spend eternity in excruciating pain"

If there wan an omnipresent being, I doubt It would be hung up on us worshipping it. Afterall, It's omnipotent, omniscient and ubiquitous.
And if there was this omnipotent-omniscient-ubiquitous guy...He/It/She most certainly would not have it that his orders be written out by a man and then translated a million times into some book we all have to follow. He/She/It could be more convincing.

I think it's about time for another Jesus. And I think this all powerful He/She/It would have the ability to be articulate, as opposed to obfuscatory in its wishes and ambiguous. >_>


I consider the bible as what it is...a human interpretation of what is right and wrong. Morals. There are many of these, however the bible is different because it claims to be the word of Him.


If there was a God, It wouldn't mind if we don't go to church (afterall He/She/It is omnipresent) as long as we try to live our lives the best we can (best being honourable nice you know) He/She/It should be happy.

Now that was all hypothetical...under the agreement that there is a Being. Which i am not sure if there is or is not.


To bring a more philosophical perspective to this...How do we know whats right or wrong? -_-

I think humans define it; right and wrong is empirical...we learn individually. Depending on how a person has been brought up.

To go back and relate that notion to religion, you cannot expect a person to follow the commandments and the bible, (thus being allowed to go to Heaven), if he/she has never read or been educated on the Bible. Christianity is most definately not inherent. Which supports my opinion that religion is a human manifestation.

Gah sorry to waffle on >_>

[Captain Corkscrew]

Well, I've been on the Christian and Non-Christian side of the fence before. I do agree with what Ravensblood had said. I have a rather diverse religious family in some ways.

I'm still looking for a religion that suits me. I do believe something is out there, just not sure who is right. Most religions have one ruler, be it what ever gender, just I don't know who is right anymore. Some of them have the same fundamentals. The "3x Rule"/"Karma Rule"/"Golden Rule" seem to be interchangeable. I do believe every religion out there has some form of this "rule" our there, just it all has different names.

Religion is a good healthy thing, everyone should have something to believe in. Beliefs give some people reason to live the way they do (not that it's always good or bad). Religion is something that can not so much be chosen for us, but that we must choose for ourselves. Religion can help us take refuge with those that share the same thoughts. What have you as a religion, they all have something that made us and the universe. Be that some omnipotent being(s) or scientific fact.

I don't know what omnipotent being(s) is the right choice, but I think that choice must be made by you yourself, not forced on you by your family. One thing that I think most religions do try and promote is "tolerance". Some do not, yes I do understand that, but others do. I do not agree with some views, but I agree with others.

As for the free will thing, life is a journey with as many twists and turns as winkles found on the oldest man's face. I believe in fate, but that fate is just not one set path, but many. Only we as people with free will have the choice to take what ever path we like. Every decision we make has some sort of importance, everything is done for a reason. I believe if you look hard enough that you can find a reason for everything we do, see, hear, feel, taste and touch.

"Who ever deemed this religion right over that one?" That's one of my biggest questions that shall for ever remain unanswered. I almost believe no religion is better then another, only equal. I guess no matter how you look at it, there is a religious choice for everyone. Be that choice to believe or not believe, it's still a choice that you have consciously made.

I do very much believe there is something(s) omnipotent watching us. It's not it's right to interfere anymore in our lives. I think that now it is stepping back and letting it's children, us take charge of the world. I do believe something big is coming, but I'm not sure what it is. It could be good, it good be bad. For all we know as people we could be living the Apocalypse now. How do we know if it's going to get better, or worse from here? Maybe even the world has some kind of cycle we have yet to discover where once all the resources are used or contaminated it replenishes it's self. I know that's a long shot, but so is any religion.

All in all, I say people should pick a religious belief based on what they like or dislike. I though do believe in some omnipotent being(s). That's just my opinion though.

[Raoul Duke]

I believe in myself. And I control myself.


" "Who ever deemed this religion right over that one?" That's one of my biggest questions that shall for ever remain unanswered."

The followers of whichever religion...

[josh]

Who created God?

[soulanubis666]

MEEEE!!!!...oh sorry *steps out quietly*

[Eiri Yuki]

Dont you know....when a mommy god and a daddy god love each other very much...........i think i just be going now. ::follows behind soulanubis666::

[Atomosk]

Dont you know....when a mommy god and a daddy god love each other very much...........i think i just be going now. ::follows behind soulanubis666::

well, now that they're gone ...

it looks like the discussion is moving into the "which religion is right?" direction. here's my answer.

there are thousands of religions in the world, and every single one of them thinks they're the right one.

Is there a religion that's better or more right than others? hell, no! are there religions that are bigger and older and more trusted than others? hell, yes!

kudo- you're analysis of revalations is most likely correct. revalations isn't supposed to be accurate. it was written during the Roman ocupation and persecution. most of the things in revelations are symbols for the world at that time. i seriously doubt it has any use in today's world.

rainmaker- no one knows where god came from. you'll just have to ask him when you see him

locke- i think yo're right about god's omniness. i doubt god actually gives a damn about the who what when where why and how of your spiritual life.

lil angel- no religion? i suggest christianity. you don't need to join a church, just believe in Jesus! that's pretty much where i stand. if Jesus ain't for you, try Buddhism. their principles are very enlightening. your religion doesn't matter in grand scheme of things. they basically teach the same principles, and the major religions all have the same one God.

[Raoul Duke]

I doubt it is even necessary to acknowledge a god, as long as you behave, lol.

And i don't think it would matter if you believe in jesus being God's son or Jesus being a philanthropist guy that helped lots of people. I believe in Jesus, just not that he was God's son and came back to life.

I'm awaiting a strict cathlolic type person to reply to J.Kudo and my posts.

[josh]

"they basically teach the same principles, and the major religions all have the same one God."

No they don't. Look into Buddhism and Christianity. Note the differences.

[The Naturalist]

Since Locke made a link to this, I might as well post here.

I think that the human brain in itself disproves the "soul."
The brain is so large that it kills one in five mothers during birth without modern medicine. And if any part of the brain is damaged, that part of the personality is lost. If it existed, the soul should be unaffected by flesh wounds. Why would "God" put in such a huge part of the body if we didnt need it? We do; the brain is our personality, not our soul.

[kyo83]

Since Locke made a link to this, I might as well post here.

I think that the human brain in itself disproves the "soul."
The brain is so large that it kills one in five mothers during birth without modern medicine. And if any part of the brain is damaged, that part of the personality is lost. If it existed, the soul should be unaffected by flesh wounds. Why would "God" put in such a huge part of the body if we didnt need it? We do; the brain is our personality, not our soul.

It’s a bit difficult to explain on the subject of our soul. However I would try to give you an answer which I believe to be true.

The inability to bring out one’s personality doesn’t make the conclusion that there’s no soul. The soul which constitutes a man's personality are 3 main faculties: The will, mind and emotion.

The will is the instrument for our decisions, revealing our power to choose. It expresses our willingness or unwillingness: "we will" or "we won't." Without it, man is reduced to an automation.

The mind(which is our brain), the instrument for our thoughts, manifests our intellectual power. Out of this arise wisdom, knowledge and reasoning. Lack of it makes a man foolish and dull.

The emotion, the instrument for our likes and dislikes is the faculty of emotion. Through it we are able to express love or hate and to feel joyful, angry, sad or happy. Any shortage of it will render man as insensitive as wood or stone.

So while our brain(the faculty for us to reason and think) may not be working well, that doesn’t mean that we don’t have a soul.

[Raoul Duke]

[censored]. I just had to save this massive thing I wrote into Microsoft Word instead of posting it. Before I post, I need another reply. You said that the soul constitues of the Will, the Mind, and the Emotion. However these three are not necessarily separate devices.

The "willingness" or "unwillingness" of a person to do something is calculated by the cost/benefit ratio, which the Mind, or brain, determines.

Emotion which is felt is normally natural, but the emotion expressed and deemed appropriate to be expressed is governed by the brain, which makes a decision based on outside factors(outside of the body) and influences.

I'm about to attempt to express a very complicated and intricate thought... I don't think everyone will understand, so bare with me.

Under the stipulation of what i said above, you are effectively saying that the soul is an intangible entity constituting of intrinsic matter. If you exclude the Mind; the Will, and the Emotion, nothing learned after birth can be incorporated into the 'soul'.


Basically, under that stipulation, I cannot see how it is possible for your concept, of what the 'soul' is to exist [pun intended].




Anyway:
If a soul is what we are...yet a soul cannot be destroyed, what is it that goes to heaven?

[Dretlin]

I do however believe in the exsitance of a soul...

Its just too depressing to suggest once you are dead you are erased from time...