does god really exist?

[Raoul Duke]

This year in psychology we have primarily been learning about psychological conditions and the personality, and developmental psychology (upbringing of a child, etc).

Next year however I will be learning about the science and workings and how, (yada yada yah) of the Brain. So hopeflly I can justify my beliefs more strongly with science. XD


I only just realised the extent to which me and J.Kudo have discussed our beliefs with one and other throughout the time we have been on the forum. Although our discussion has been intermittent...

Anyway I am glad someone who understands science as well as you do has finally given an input into this discussion.

[kyo83]

Hi J.Kudo,

I'm so glad that you've decided to participate.

I personally detest the Idea of the fact that people believe in the idea that God somehow must punish us for what somone deemed good or evil, when in reality there is no definite good or evil.

Most people have err in this in that they believe Hell is a place where God use it to punish people for eternalty. May I say that this understanding is wrong. God didn't punish people when they don't believe in Him. When people die, since they don't believe in God, God will just have to send them to a place where ther souls can exist right? This is the place we call it Hell. Allow me to further explain.

What is Hell? Hell is a total separation from God. It's tormenting in Hell not because there is fire burning us, but because we could no longer connect with God. This causes our soul to suffer. The feeling is like fire burning inside of us. Thus lots of people have mistaken when they thought that in Hell there is a lot of fire. It's not the fire that is a torment, it's the total separation from God which feels like fire that really the reason for the torment.

Another thing we must understand is this. If you are a parent. And you know what's about to come, do you not want to choose the best for your kids? Even 2nd best is not enough. Thus when God wanted all of us to believe in Him. He wanted the best for us. For us to enjoy and for us to live. However if we choose not to take his advice, He will just have to let us go. He can't let us stay on Earth coz the Earth is going to perish someday, He also don't like the idea of destroying our souls, so what can He do? He will just have to send those who don't want to believe in Him to a place where they wanted. Where there's no God, just they themselves.

This idea has done more harm than good by trying to lay out a path, and more often than not focusing all those who are not on that path as evil themselves. This paradigm of a perception of God or gods as such has caused harm to Oppresed people, caused harm to homosexuals, caused harm to everyone's perception of right and wrong, caused harm to the World Trade Center, and caused harm to religon itself.

Isn't Athiesm a form of religion by itself? The "I am God" religion? If you search deep inside everone of us, including me, you will realize that there is the need for acceptance, security, love, etc. All of these cannot and will never be satisfied by modern technology, friends, our kins, etc. All of these are important and we need them, however, they can only satisfy us temporary. You'll come to realize that only God can totally fill up the vacume/the need that is in all of us.

There are a lot of questions in the area of cosmology, biology, physics, and all other important areas of science which I’ve not much understanding of. But one thing I know, I’ve seen people who are blind gets healed , people who have tumor suddently disappear when Christians pray for them and was diagnosed by doctors as true, the handicapped was able to walk. Life change when people start believes in God.

Even my buddy who didn't belive in a God and used to reject God now believes and testify that there is a God when we choose to believe Him. He also note to me that there are times, he ask lots of questions, but now he realize that sometimes there are things which is beyond intellectual, we have to take that step of faith to experience and feel. Only then will we be able to understand what Christianity is about. Yes it’s true that Christianity do not have a very clean history. There are many wrongs that some Christians had done and have been doing, but there are still many who are true Christians and has been helping around in the world to make it a better place. While I've no right to judge other Christians, I'm trying my utmost abilites to show people that God is a loving and merciful God.

I'm really very impress with your knowledge in science. I would wish that I've that vast knowledge. Are you a doctor or something? Anyway, have you read any of the books? The Case for a Creator,The Case for Faith and The Case for Christ. If you haven't I hope that you could read them.

Christianity is not a dead religion, it's a relationship with God and others. Yu wouldn't be able to understand why is it a relationship until you believe in Jesus. Please note that I'm not condemning anybody or undermining other belief by saying this. As I have said before I'm not here to impose my views on other, but to hope to clarify certain misunderstanding about the things in The Bible and also hope that at least some of you will come to know Him as your personal Saviour, Lord and Friend.

For those of you who claims to be Christians, please know that being a Christian isn't just by getting a name from the Bible. You also have to live that lifestyle. That is to pray to God, read the Word of God (that is the Bible), Attend a Bible-believing Church regualrly. Prayer means talking to God just like how you talk to your friends and family members. You need to read the Bible so that you will grow stronger in God.

kyo83
p.s.: After today, I may not be able to answer all your questions so regularly, I'm very sorry. However I would try my best to to come back often to do so.

[Lucia Skyfire]

I see the exerpts above important for future discussion of the subject on soul.

The "willingness" or "unwillingness" of a person to do something is calculated by the cost/benefit ratio, which the Mind, or brain, determines.

Emotion which is felt is normally natural, but the emotion expressed and deemed appropriate to be expressed is governed by the brain, which makes a decision based on outside factors(outside of the body) and influences.

True, but what governs the brain? I could think of no other except a soul behind it.

Well, from an atheist standpoint, and taking this out of biochemistry and neurology. The brain is a very complex device, which works baded on chemical association. Things that fire togeather wire togeather as neural recepters become chemicaly joined based on how often you focus on things, this developes into memories over time, and the memories that we focus on trigger emotions, which then trigger more memories which trigger otehr emotions whih then trigger the original memory. (If your dog died until you stop allowing those impulses to fire togeather (I.E. occor) you will experience the same emotions when you see a dog that looks similar.

Emotions are chemical reinforcement of memory. There is a gland in your brain just byond the Putuitary which produces protines, aminopeptides to be more precise. It in fact produces one peptide for every emotion that we can experience, and it is triggered by electrical responses that are associated with those momories. It then floods the body with the proper peptides for taht emotion or emotions, and they find specific receptor sites on the cell dedicated to that specific emotion. This causes actual changes in you cells' chemical structure that produces the respopnses in our macroscopic self we feel as emotion. an interesting tidbit, emotions use the same receptor slots as heroin so you can become addicted to an emotional state in which you will become trapped in the past and effectively search for ways to wind up in situations that will get your emotional rush. This combined with a desire to be happy and live a good life, especialy when they conflict, creates what many call the human drama.

Under the stipulation of what i said above, you are effectively saying that the soul is an intangible entity constituting of intrinsic matter. If you exclude the Mind; the Will, and the Emotion, nothing learned after birth can be incorporated into the 'soul'.

No. As I have said, the soul consist of the mind, emotion and will. Thus with the mind it is able to learn through a physiological matter, which is the brain.

To continue my atheist perspective I believe that there is great confusion over this idea or perception of a 'will' that we have, will is devined as a desire to accomplish a goal or the determination to accomplish that goal. This said, what many define as will in stead seems to be a complex coctail of emotions, as opposed to anything seperate from them.

Anyway:
If a soul is what we are...yet a soul cannot be destroyed, what is it that goes to heaven?

Erm.. I don't quite get what you mean. It's our soul that is going to heaven or hell. Our soul will never be destoyed.

kyo83

I personally detest the Idea of the fact that people believe in the idea that God somehow must punish us for what somone deemed good or evil, when in reality there is no definite good or evil. This idea has done more harm than good by trying to lay out a path, and more often than not focusing all those who are not on that path as evil themselves. This paradigm of a perception of God or gods as such has caused harm to Oppresed people, caused harm to homosexuals, caused harm to everyone's perception of right and wrong, caused harm to the World Trade Center, and caused harm to religon itself.

I believe (and through a massive ammount of philosiphy and science that I won't go into unless asked) that philisophicaly religon has been twisted into this precept to grant power to the church and not to state that perhaps the TRUE IDEA of God is not that it is an omniotent being that created us, but that it IS a being that EVERYONE and EVERYTHING exists as and within. And EVERYTHING acts to either evolve this force or devolve it, not acting as good or evil, but only as expanding knowledge and the one universal principle that both Science and Philosiphy states the principle of Unity, for I am my mind, and I am also my body, but I am also my cells, and the enegy within them, and I am my atoms, and I am my physical organisim, and at the same time, my IDeas are one with that as well, so not only am I physical but also perception and thought, and since atoms trly exist as more of a bit of information than as a substance, being mostly empty, it could be said that easily EVERYTHING is a thought, and therefore an Idea, which we create, and thus we create everything, but at the same time, we ARE created by ourselves and everything around us, and thus EVERYTHING is created by this unity.


and this concept can be stated by one law that has existed since Newton (or was it Einstein?)
"Matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed only Transformed."
((That was a bit long winded... are you glad I left out the long part?))[/quote]

Damn right.
I'm agnostic, though. I don't know or care whether he exists.

[Dretlin]

Most people have err in this in that they believe Hell is a place where God use it to punish people for eternalty. May I say that this understanding is wrong. God didn't punish people when they don't believe in Him. When people die, since they don't believe in God, God will just have to send them to a place where ther souls can exist right? This is the place we call it Hell. Allow me to further explain.

What is Hell? Hell is a total separation from God. It's tormenting in Hell not because there is fire burning us, but because we could no longer connect with God. This causes our soul to suffer. The feeling is like fire burning inside of us. Thus lots of people have mistaken when they thought that in Hell there is a lot of fire. It's not the fire that is a torment, it's the total separation from God which feels like fire that really the reason for the torment.

Another thing we must understand is this. If you are a parent. And you know what's about to come, do you not want to choose the best for your kids? Even 2nd best is not enough. Thus when God wanted all of us to believe in Him. He wanted the best for us. For us to enjoy and for us to live. However if we choose not to take his advice, He will just have to let us go. He can't let us stay on Earth coz the Earth is going to perish someday, He also don't like the idea of destroying our souls, so what can He do? He will just have to send those who don't want to believe in Him to a place where they wanted. Where there's no God, just they themselves.

I guess that clears up the streotypical view of hell.

I had the feelin when reading this you assume that we are always connceted to "God" in someway on earth, or else "sins" would be on the floor complaining of sevear heart burn.

And that you talk of the earth as if its a living being, the earth is a rock with us walking all over it...

By the earth dieing do you mean it wont be habitable for humans anymore? Thats not goin to happen for a very long time.

And we will all live on Mars and talk in tongues

Ignore the last part

Does this mean you think humans will never leave earth in mass?

[Raoul Duke]

kai, "if a tree falls in a forest yada yada yah does it still make a noise?"

Apply that to your thing about our existence as thought, and you are dead set right.

If you extend that further, the meaning of life, what it is to life, what it is to exist, is a completely unique experience and an enitity unto itself for each individual person. Perspective (especially to do with past experience) being paramount to existence.


lol I'm not really posting this for you guys... just making some transient thoughts tangible....somewhat. Well not really transient, lol. Just tangible-ish.

[Lucia Skyfire]

I believe that even if God exists, he is not an entity of this world. He is apparently the Creator, and thus if there were parents involved, he would have had to create them also, making him THEIR parent. This, however, makes no sense.

[Ethereal Blaze]

Kai, please, stop reading discworld, its screwin with your brain.

[J.Kudo]

Hi J.Kudo,

I'm so glad that you've decided to participate.

I personally detest the Idea of the fact that people believe in the idea that God somehow must punish us for what somone deemed good or evil, when in reality there is no definite good or evil.

Most people have err in this in that they believe Hell is a place where God use it to punish people for eternalty. May I say that this understanding is wrong. God didn't punish people when they don't believe in Him. When people die, since they don't believe in God, God will just have to send them to a place where ther souls can exist right? This is the place we call it Hell. Allow me to further explain.

What is Hell? Hell is a total separation from God. It's tormenting in Hell not because there is fire burning us, but because we could no longer connect with God. This causes our soul to suffer. The feeling is like fire burning inside of us. Thus lots of people have mistaken when they thought that in Hell there is a lot of fire. It's not the fire that is a torment, it's the total separation from God which feels like fire that really the reason for the torment.

Another thing we must understand is this. If you are a parent. And you know what's about to come, do you not want to choose the best for your kids? Even 2nd best is not enough. Thus when God wanted all of us to believe in Him. He wanted the best for us. For us to enjoy and for us to live. However if we choose not to take his advice, He will just have to let us go. He can't let us stay on Earth coz the Earth is going to perish someday, He also don't like the idea of destroying our souls, so what can He do? He will just have to send those who don't want to believe in Him to a place where they wanted. Where there's no God, just they themselves.

FOr thsi respone I am going to focus on your last paragraph, mostly. And this idea of hell is also somthing that while, albeit better than the demons and pitchforks image, is still not what I believe to be quite proper. I would say that the IDEA of tehre being a hell is infact flawed, for even in the denial of a being called God, you still exist and as such could be one with the reality that exists, that was created, somehow (For this paragraphs sake I am assuming that
1) Some form of "God" exists and
2) that this "God" created the universe.)

Have you ever heard the saying "While the world is small the universe is infinite."? (Or any variation therein) It would seem that this would, from your perspective indicate that the kingdom of heaven would be everexpanding and infinately existant. However, this would mean that there is unlimited room for everyone's souls, so if god were like a parent, I don't see why he wouldn't welcom in even those children who were rebellious in thier comparitive youth.

This idea has done more harm than good by trying to lay out a path, and more often than not focusing all those who are not on that path as evil themselves. This paradigm of a perception of God or gods as such has caused harm to Oppresed people, caused harm to homosexuals, caused harm to everyone's perception of right and wrong, caused harm to the World Trade Center, and caused harm to religon itself.

Isn't Athiesm a form of religion by itself? The "I am God" religion? If you search deep inside everone of us, including me, you will realize that there is the need for acceptance, security, love, etc. All of these cannot and will never be satisfied by modern technology, friends, our kins, etc. All of these are important and we need them, however, they can only satisfy us temporary. You'll come to realize that only God can totally fill up the vacume/the need that is in all of us.

Actualy, atheisim is the belief that no god ever existed the I am God religon is called Megalomania or more severly Delusions of Graneir. I like tho think of mself as an atheist in the idea that there is no true "God" however mroe of a philosipher in the respect of spirituality and the human element in particular. And I'm not saying that an IDEA of god isn't comforting. It's comforting to say "I just have to pray and hope and GOd will take care of everything for me as long as I do everything he compells me to in the hopes of getting a better life."

however this school of thinking is in my opinion, incorrect, because the truth is that everythign that happens TO you is caused by YOU, and how you relate with the universe. However this scares alot of people, because it means that THEY become responsible for their lives, not just being able to think they didn't pray enough, but that they created that reality. However on the same token this also means taht you can't help anyone unless they first sever thier emotinoal addictions, struggle with that withdrawl, and then accept it. This starving for affection that people turn to god for is one of these dependendies, and jsut like a man addicted to lust fantasizing, and getting a boner, nothing outside of him gave him that, jsut like nothing outside of those people who were healed healed them, THEY healed it, however it took a push from their beliefe in a God that doesn't exist to think that it was coming from something better, and that somone else's fain this this boosted the belief as well.

There are a lot of questions in the area of cosmology, biology, physics, and all other important areas of science which I’ve not much understanding of. But one thing I know, I’ve seen people who are blind gets healed , people who have tumor suddently disappear when Christians pray for them and was diagnosed by doctors as true, the handicapped was able to walk. Life change when people start believes in God.

I believe that Jesus has the gift of believing with every fiber of his being that he could heal people, and walk on water, in his mind there was no doubt, and his paradigm was that noone close to him ever told him he couldn't, and thes his faith in his connection to "God" allowed him this gift from inside him. IN this way god does exist, and a channel of faith for those who can't free themselves from such addictions, and become more than they are, to gain access to that nature, a short cut of sorts. I do honestly believe taht with enough understanding that hopefuly someday we will all become as true to our nature as the Jeusus and the Buddahs of our past.

Even my buddy who didn't belive in a God and used to reject God now believes and testify that there is a God when we choose to believe Him. He also note to me that there are times, he ask lots of questions, but now he realize that sometimes there are things which is beyond intellectual, we have to take that step of faith to experience and feel. Only then will we be able to understand what Christianity is about. Yes it’s true that Christianity do not have a very clean history. There are many wrongs that some Christians had done and have been doing, but there are still many who are true Christians and has been helping around in the world to make it a better place. While I've no right to judge other Christians, I'm trying my utmost abilites to show people that God is a loving and merciful God.

I'm really very impress with your knowledge in science. I would wish that I've that vast knowledge. Are you a doctor or something? Anyway, have you read any of the books? The Case for a Creator,The Case for Faith and The Case for Christ. If you haven't I hope that you could read them.

Christianity is not a dead religion, it's a relationship with God and others. Yu wouldn't be able to understand why is it a relationship until you believe in Jesus. Please note that I'm not condemning anybody or undermining other belief by saying this. As I have said before I'm not here to impose my views on other, but to hope to clarify certain misunderstanding about the things in The Bible and also hope that at least some of you will come to know Him as your personal Saviour, Lord and Friend.

For those of you who claims to be Christians, please know that being a Christian isn't just by getting a name from the Bible. You also have to live that lifestyle. That is to pray to God, read the Word of God (that is the Bible), Attend a Bible-believing Church regualrly. Prayer means talking to God just like how you talk to your friends and family members. You need to read the Bible so that you will grow stronger in God.

I think my response to this section got blended into my response to the above.

kyo83
p.s.: After today, I may not be able to answer all your questions so regularly, I'm very sorry. However I would try my best to to come back often to do so.

Oh and FYI, I'm a kid in my basement with the lights off playing X-Box and watching Star Trek re-runs like most other geeks out there.. actualy I'm in 11th grade right now... only about 11-12 years away from my doctorate lol.

[Raoul Duke]

kai, "if a tree falls in a forest yada yada yah does it still make a noise?"

Apply that to your thing about our existence as thought, and you are dead set right.

If you extend that further, the meaning of life, what it is to life, what it is to exist, is a completely unique experience and an enitity unto itself for each individual person. Perspective (especially to do with past experience) being paramount to existence.


lol I'm not really posting this for you guys... just making some transient thoughts tangible....somewhat. Well not really transient, lol. Just tangible-ish.

Let the record show that when I made this post I had sunk one too many beers. Seriously. -_-

[kyo83]

As I thought over what Kai had said I realize that although his first sentence is correct, the latter part is wrong. Allow me to explain...

God is not a physical entity,

Yes, God is not a physical entity, however we can experience and feel Him. Just like wind, how do we know that wind exist? It's because we can feel it.

and thus does not possess the traits of "Life and Personality",

This is where I don't agree, if we say that because God doesn't have an entity, He doesn't have a Life or isn't a person then we're saying that God is limited to only matter, or only our form of belief, which is false. The God of Christianity is a personal God. He does have a personality. He is a being. He wasn't created but He has been there always.

So how do I explain a being that has existed for eternality? As I've said earlier, it is difficult for our mind to comprehend something which is not created, but that is God. He's not created, He had already existed and has been existing, He wasn't made and He will exist forever.

j. Kudos=>> I knew when I said that I've personally testify of the miracles that I've seen, somebody would say that it's because of our desire to belief in something; thus allowing us to experience what Jesus said it will happen. j. Kudos, if what you say is true, then Christians must be a group of highly super intecllectual beings who doesn't need doctors at all! Please do not try to use other absurd ways to explain what science couldn't. Even many other atheistic/ evolutionary Ph.D. doctors couldn't even explain all there is in this world, how do you think that you could? I do hope that you can express your views in an unbiased way.

For your views of not enough space for souls to live in. Well, may you be rest assured. The Kingdom of God is ever expanding, everlasting. No matter how many souls there is, the Kingdom of God is able to contain us all.

I would have several questions to ask for those who are willing to answer.

1)What is the origin of our consciousness?
I believe that consciousness comes from our spirit which comes from God. If you say that it’s due to some random matter which evolve to become our consciousness, I would like to ask you to come out with a better argument.

Wilder Penfield, the renowned father of neurosurgery, also thought that mind lies in the brain, He started out suspecting that consciousness lies in the brain.

This is what Wilder Penfield said, "Throughout my own scientific career, I, like other scientists, have struggled to prove that the brain accounts for the mind."

After working more than a thousand epileptic patients, he concluded this, "To expect the highest brain mechanism or any other reflexes, however complicated, to carry out what the mind does, and thus perform all the functions of the mind is quite absurd. What a thrill it is, then to discover that the scientist, too, can legitimately believe in the existence of the spirit."

2) Back to the question regarding our mind. If we say that we are not created, but we are a product of evolution. From a set of random matters, which suddenly out of no reason created us, then how on Earth can I still suppose that my beliefs are true? Since my mind is created out of randomness.

A British evolutionist J. B. S. Haldane even quoted this, "If my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of the atoms in my brain, I have not reason to suppose that my beliefs are true...and hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be compose of atoms."
-J. B. S. Haldane, "When I am dead" in Possible Worlds and other Essay

kyo83

[Raoul Duke]

j. Kudos=>> I knew when I said that I've personally testify of the miracles that I've seen, somebody would say that it's because of our desire to belief in something; thus allowing us to experience what Jesus said it will happen. j. Kudos, if what you say is true, then Christians must be a group of highly super intecllectual beings who doesn't need doctors at all! Please do not try to use other absurd ways to explain what science couldn't. Even many other atheistic/ evolutionary Ph.D. doctors couldn't even explain all there is in this world, how do you think that you could? I do hope that you can express your views in an unbiased way.

Sorry but that's just completely ridiculous. You know it, we all know it. lmfao. Other than the fact that you HAVE NOT witnessed miracles, you forced the alternative you wanted, by assuming too much and putting ABSURD words into J.Kudo's mouth.

"j. Kudos, if what you say is true, then Christians must be a group of highly super intecllectual beings who doesn't need doctors at all!"

Your answer is just this: "If I can't understand something it means God did it." That way you have an answer for everything! And it helps you ignore facts! XD

God is just a way to explain the unknown because humans are afraid of the unknown. He helps us sleep at night.

What is absurd is your answer, which is supported by absolutely NO evidence at all, other than a silly book which was written by old men and contains their ABSURD biases. ...That and argumentum ad populum.

[Dretlin]

So we have moved on to miracles now...

I feel it’s just a lack of understanding. As locke said. But remember hundreds of years ago people were burnt as witches for bizarre reasons? Only now we know of the fact that the wheat in e.g. Salem had a hallucinogenic in it, making victims feel as if they were subject of witchcraft.

Of course that’s strange when we look at it now, our decedents will probably have all the answers…but right now we are the ignorant ones.

That’s just an example of lack of understanding, we don't know much about the universe, there’s still so much more to be discovered.

[Symos]

I thought the witchhunts were simply a mean to rid communities of non-conformaty like Nazi Germany.

[J.Kudo]

Locke, although I agree with your points could you please be a bit more civilised next time you support me, barrating someone for barrating you gets everyone nowhere fast.

Dretlin is correct, it was actually the same mushtoom (Urgot) that acid was created from, and in fact is far mroe concntrated, so acid trips caused a massacre. This Urgot was growing on a farmer's wheat, so the bread has the concentrated acid baked in, And the actual cause fo all of the witch tirals was not about nonconformity but power. The catholic and Christian churches had near-total-control of the people, and had absolute power, however by not practising thier religon in a way that gave the church more power, you were essentially rebellign against a totalitarian government (Ala Nazi Germany) and were killed, burned, torn open and had your guts roun out with a horse, had your limbs smashed to powder and tied to a wheel and thrown downa a hill, and your sex organs crushed or impaled to the point of tearing appart, etc. There was a reason the time was called the "Dark Ages". Also during this time science was banned as it explained thigs in a way other than "God did it worship God, God is the only answer." Which is why we believed the world was created in 6 days for so long.
----------------------------------------------------
At any rate back to the discussion at hand.

That is a VERY weak argument, that God is the source of all miracles, therefor Hurrican Katrina was gaused by god's wrath and not pressure caused by rising temperatures in the atlantic ocean which were twisted by the earths rotation into a massive wind storm which then moved with the oceanic currents to the point where it struck land and was able to burn off? Or that the earth is the center of the universe and that the sun revolves around the earth? Or how about that the earth was created in 6 days as was all life.?

My point is this, we used to believe that amny thigns were true, however in history we find that most of the time these things are not true.

Qunatum Physics is a physics of possibility and reality, it doesn't state what people believe to be, but what people don't know IS.

This may be a bit complicated to understand, so bare with me here, and yes, it sounds insane, however it IS in fact what reality IS and this has all been seen and proven.

Firstly, the universe is empty. When I say this I mean that matter has no substance at all. Atoms are tiny points of charged particles that are surrouned by empty space and a sort of tiny cloud of otehr charged particles. However even in this sense the super-dense charged barticles are not substantial, but blink in and out of our reality constantly. Ever seen somethign one second and then it vanished? That is what occors here, enough particles shift at one time that it causes the object to appear to be missing, ten they jump bakc and it reappears.

So this means that we have no substance and are in fact intagible bits of information that are constntly changing form. In fact, that's actually waht a thought is, a bit of infomration. So the most solid thing you cna say about anything is that it is a bit of information and not an actual object.

---

Section II: Our reality.
Did you know that you nver touched anything in your entire life? Not even the chair you are sitting in? How about the air you breathe... NOPE!.

you see this is because the electrons that are moving in and out of reality also have a negative charge, and are also always on the OUTSIDE of atoms, this means that atoms never touch, because like charges of the electrons repel each other, like two magnets. Meanign that nothing CAN touch at all. Even in chemical bonding they don't actualy touch but the electrons jump between the atoms crating a bridge.

But yet, in spite of this we all have this experince that IS touch, but where does it come from? It comes from US we only touch what we THINK we touch, if you don't feel something and KNOW waht is should feel like you begin to assume and in your mind that IS what you are touching, and thus, everything we touch is actualy a meantal imprint of a preconcieved notion that may or may not be true. Like in that compercial where all the kids are touchign the spaghetti and think it's different things like worms. TO them, it IS worms, however since you can see it you know it isn't, at least you do't think it is.

Even this, however, may not be true. because the some thought patterns that occor when you see somethign also occor when we remember something. What we see is no differnet from what we remember. Add on to that out brain processes about 60,000,000,000 bits of visual input every millisecond, however we only recieve about 2000 bits of that information. This means that we already judge waht is important and what is not, and therefore, we don't see most of waht is really out there. Effectively, we oly experience one of trillions upon trillions of true possiblites every time we look.

This means that everything effectively exists in every position at once, until our mind picks a position to view it in, and we become totally attuned and set into the idea that that is reality that we percieve that to be true, howver it is NOT true. Tehre are already laboratories in which there are objects existing in two places at the same time, and there are pictures of this.

So then, if you cannot create matter, then houw does it exist suddenly in a second location unless it was already there in the first place?

The same can be said about taste (Since it is actually an enchnaced sense of touch, and smells are the touch of certain chemicles. However sound it the transmission of waveleingths, however, these too are transmitted though touch, and all of these are parred down by our brains the same way as sight, so really, nothing is out there otehr than what we subconsiously CHOOSE to exist out there. But in truth there is no "out there" out there independent of hwat's "in here" or inside your mind.
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Section III: Time Tribualtions

I went into great detail about time in antoehr theread (THe paranormal one in OTD) however I will go into more detail about this now.

We make teh mistake of thinking of time as a constant, that it is set in one direction ant that that is the way we move. However this is far from the truth. In truth time exists as more of a plane, a plane of existance that can be affected jsut as really as the physical world, and has it's hills and valleys (Called tessaracts). In addition since it is a plane and not a point, we can move freely thorugh it, existing at any point in time, in the same way as we exist in every PLACE we also exist in every TIME. as a result the best thing you can say about the idea of being created at all is that it is in fact impossible, as everyone existed in some form at all times. This also means taht our perception that time is unalterable is SO heavily set in, that we in fact fall into the trap of ALLOWING it to affect us in that manner. However at the sam time, have you ever been having so much fun that time seemed to move faster, as if you were somehow traveling though it at a higher rate? Perhaps that is because you WERE, you were moveing at an accelerated rate through time, this causes a time dialation, so everyone else would percieve you as in fact moving slightly faster and talking quicker than normal, shoud they realize the occorance and accept it.
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Section IV: Religous Effects
So how does all this affect this discussion. Well from this we can see that WE choose everything and everythign that happens to us, people who truly believe that somethign will happen ALLOW themselves and thier insubstantial reality to become that way. This means that ANYTHING is possible, however it also says that everythign that happens to you IS your fault, and that is a concept that many people fear, as it places the responsiblity of the world squarely in their lap. In this way God acts as a comfor blanket, if I pray enough somethign will happen to me that is good because god will do it for me, however, this isn't really a good school of thought. "God helps those who helps themselves" is a good analogy to support my point, because what I think it is saying is that FIRST you have to create somethign into your reality, THEN it can happen to you, however you CAN'T allow yourself to become dependant on this artifical presence called "God" to assist you, or NOTHING will happen. IN the same way as trying to gain power though materialisim. ou only have waht you allow yourself to have, and thus though measuring yourself thorugh what you ahve, you again, fail to create what you want.

In simpler terms, people created deities to lift the responsibility of their actions and thoughts from affecting them because it was too much to handle, however in order to acent to our true potential we need to cast away every percoception of reality, from the Idea that God exists, to that of the fact that the world is round and that the planets revolve around the sun, and that matter is substantial, and that there was a beginnning to time, all of these poorly created preconceptions as an attempt to create an understandable wrold, that has time and time again been proven false.

"We have all of this great knowledge, all of this great technology, from levitation magnets to generators of Zero Point Energy, and we still have this ugly, backwater, supersticious idea of God" - Ramtha (Sp?)

[Lucia Skyfire]

As I thought over what Kai had said I realize that although his first sentence is correct, the latter part is wrong. Allow me to explain...

God is not a physical entity,

Yes, God is not a physical entity, however we can experience and feel Him. Just like wind, how do we know that wind exist? It's because we can feel it.

and thus does not possess the traits of "Life and Personality",

This is where I don't agree, if we say that because God doesn't have an entity, He doesn't have a Life or isn't a person then we're saying that God is limited to only matter, or only our form of belief, which is false. The God of Christianity is a personal God. He does have a personality. He is a being. He wasn't created but He has been there always.

So how do I explain a being that has existed for eternality? As I've said earlier, it is difficult for our mind to comprehend something which is not created, but that is God. He's not created, He had already existed and has been existing, He wasn't made and He will exist forever.

j. Kudos=>> I knew when I said that I've personally testify of the miracles that I've seen, somebody would say that it's because of our desire to belief in something; thus allowing us to experience what Jesus said it will happen. j. Kudos, if what you say is true, then Christians must be a group of highly super intecllectual beings who doesn't need doctors at all! Please do not try to use other absurd ways to explain what science couldn't. Even many other atheistic/ evolutionary Ph.D. doctors couldn't even explain all there is in this world, how do you think that you could? I do hope that you can express your views in an unbiased way.

For your views of not enough space for souls to live in. Well, may you be rest assured. The Kingdom of God is ever expanding, everlasting. No matter how many souls there is, the Kingdom of God is able to contain us all.

I would have several questions to ask for those who are willing to answer.

1)What is the origin of our consciousness?
I believe that consciousness comes from our spirit which comes from God. If you say that it’s due to some random matter which evolve to become our consciousness, I would like to ask you to come out with a better argument.

Wilder Penfield, the renowned father of neurosurgery, also thought that mind lies in the brain, He started out suspecting that consciousness lies in the brain.

This is what Wilder Penfield said, "Throughout my own scientific career, I, like other scientists, have struggled to prove that the brain accounts for the mind."

After working more than a thousand epileptic patients, he concluded this, "To expect the highest brain mechanism or any other reflexes, however complicated, to carry out what the mind does, and thus perform all the functions of the mind is quite absurd. What a thrill it is, then to discover that the scientist, too, can legitimately believe in the existence of the spirit."

2) Back to the question regarding our mind. If we say that we are not created, but we are a product of evolution. From a set of random matters, which suddenly out of no reason created us, then how on Earth can I still suppose that my beliefs are true? Since my mind is created out of randomness.

A British evolutionist J. B. S. Haldane even quoted this, "If my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of the atoms in my brain, I have not reason to suppose that my beliefs are true...and hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be compose of atoms."
-J. B. S. Haldane, "When I am dead" in Possible Worlds and other Essay

kyo83

I'll have you remember that I am agnostic. I do not know or care whether he exists.
If you are a discworld fan, you'll know.

"90% of the universe is unaccounted for. This is because that 90% does the accounting for the known 10%" maybe that is what some would call God. He/She/It is not an entity of this world even if it does exist. I cannot 'Feel' it, and neither can any other normal belief. But, as you said, we CAN feel the wind. This does not mean that the wind is alive. It merely means that our senses can detect it. It is the same principle with God. However our senses cannot detect God, because he is not in any way physical. It is merely a metaphor for the Creator. The creator is, in my opinion, not an entity, but a random occurence, and that the same thing, this 'Creator', will also be the Destroyer of the universe. this is the entity that Terry Pratchett (Discworld author) describes as the fifth horseman of the Apocalypse, Kaos. This, of course, is just a crude metaphor of, once again, the Random occurence that created and will no doubt destroy the universe. It is not known to humans exactly what created the universe, and it is unlikely that humanity will ever know. Thus, not one of us can justify our beliefs perfectly, and not one of us can prove our theories. One can only continue to believe in our theories. No-one should ever Indoctrinate their beliefs unto others, and what I am saying is merely a theory for others to consider. They do not have to believe or agree with me. You can contradict me all you want, but this is what I believe.

[Lucia Skyfire]

"God is not a physical entity, however we can experience and feel Him."

Kyo, how can you feel Him? Tell me which of your senses detect Him. I cannot in any way detect the presence of God, and a lot of people share this view, or this argument would have died long ago.